OK ok ok.
Here's a helpful quiz I've developed to clear up any spiritual confusion out there. Are you, in general, a happy person or a dour one? Do you live in harmony, or discord?
Take my handy "Christian or Pagan" holiday song challenge to find out!
First, the Pagans:
Now, the Christians:
Now think about the lyrics and decide, which song does a better job of representing what I think?
And don't forget to focus on what you THINK, not what you think you're supposed to BELIEVE.
Now before any of you Christians blather on about how this guy is not representative of mainstream Christianity, I ask you to REALLY look beyond the awful music to the ideas he espouses. I think you'll see he pretty well sums up the Jesus-thing.
OK then. Hopefully that will have helped everyone who was in doubt to decide once and for all if they have chosen their belief system correctly. No need to thank me.
Mazel tov,
Tyson
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15 comments:
Sorry, no, the lyrics of the Jesus song does not espouse the ideas the majority of Christian's believe, only about 25%, granted the loudest 25%, but only a minority regardless.
The Pagan song was nice, though. I liked the part about "pumpkin pies being the only thing that's burning." That was a very nice lyric.
Try this Christian song, and consider what you believe, and if it contradicts the Pagan song, or not.
'Tis the gift to be simple, 'tis the gift to be free,
'Tis the gift to come down where you ought to be,
And when we find ourselves in the place just right,
'Twill be in the valley of love and delight.
When true simplicity is gain'd,
To bow and to bend we shan't be asham'd,
To turn, turn will be our delight,
Till by turning, turning we come round right.
A modern arrangement...
'Tis the gift to be loved and that love to return,
'Tis the gift to be taught and a richer gift to learn,
And when we expect of others what we try to live each day,
Then we'll all live together and we'll all learn to say,
(refrain)
'Tis the gift to have friends and a true friend to be,
'Tis the gift to think of others not to only think of "me",
And when we hear what others really think and really feel,
Then we'll all live together with a love that is real.
Another modern version...
’Tis a gift to be loving, ’Tis a gift to be gay,
’Tis a gift to accept one another anyway,
And when we are ourselves, And have no pretence,
Then we shall find that our lives make sense.
When true simplicity is gained,
There’ll be no excuses, No need to explain,
To love one another will be our delight,
Till by living in love we will come round right.
Now, before any of you Pagans out blather on about how these lyrics are not representative of mainstream Christianity, I ask you to look to ideas this song espouses. I think you'll see they pretty well sum up what Jesus said and how he lived.
Simple Gifts is my favorite hymn. There are many others like it, but I think the combination of the lyrics and the lovely tune make it lovely.
:)
No need to thank me either...
That IS a nice hymn. Do they regularly sing that one in most churches?
You know Elaine, you've accidentally agreed with me! Because I can totally dig on what Jesus SAID, and on how he LIVED... and I believe he had it right.
But if you ask most Christians if they believe in Hell or if they think that the ONLY option for "salvation" is through "Him," I think many, many more would say yes than just 25%. Whether or not they could explain why or what they believe beyond the cliche soundbites, though.... well that's another question.
I don't disagree with Jesus; it's the ideas about him that I think are troublesome. :)
There's nothing tastier than a Christmas turkey that's been tempered over burning witches.
I think I saw a cross guitar just like that one in Brannon's office.
The one in B's office hangs upside down.
You know, Tyson... I'm just not sure you would get many, many more "yes" answers the questions you posed than the 25% I sited. I will agree though, that it could be more than 25% -- maybe 35%?
This is a predominately Christian nation, and in order for Barack Obama to get elected, it took a lot of Christian votes. Yes, Obama is Christian, not the point. The group you are discussing -- belief in Hell (which btw, I believe in Hell), Christ being the only option for "salvation" -- are the fundamentalists. Fundamentalists did not vote for Obama. Much more than you suspect, are very open.
We just joined our church. B is an atheist. It was not a problem. He is not the only atheist member. The minister didn't even bat an eyelash. In fact, he offered to introduce B to some like-minded others. The last church we considered joining was a United Methodist Church of the evangelical-George-Bush kind. B's position didn't even get a raised eyebrow. The Episcopal church where I was a member married us, knowing full well that B was an atheist, and welcomed him into membership with the offer to introduce him to some like-minded "others."
Yes, there are churches and and Christians of the sort you describe, but they are not representative of most of us. Even those who do espouse really conservative beliefs will very often reserve the right to be wrong, or at the very least concede that most points people argue about such as the virgin birth, Hell, the infallibility of the Bible, just are not things worth arguing over.
The fundamentalists, well, God love 'em, because they drive the rest of us nuts.
Still, the problem I continue to have with church is that, even in the simplest version of "joining," they ask, not "do you want to raise your children to be caring individuals" or "don't you agree that it's generally good form not to be a total dick" or anything like that, but "do you accept Jesus Christ as your LORD AND SAVIOR." I just don't understand why it takes believing in a resurrected sky-man to make people want to be nice to each other.
I just checked with B, because I thought I might have missed something, and I asked him if the church asked him to accept Jesus as his Lord and Savior before he could join. He said they did not.
I'm just not very clear why my 35 years of church experience is meaningless. Do you think I am lying? No, not all churches, nor all denominations, ask that a person accept Jesus as their Lord and Savior to join, not in a complicated format and not in a simple format. B has not been asked to ascribe to that doctrine. Nor would ever agree to publicly or privately affirm that he "believed" such a doctrine.
I can speak from first hand experience that the United Methodists and the Disciples of Christ do not require a sky-man or sky-god affiliation belief, or pretense there of, in order to join. In fact, the United Methodists don't even require such a belief or pretense in order for a person to participate fully in Holy Communion as a matter explicit of doctrine.
I was asked the Lord and Savior question. But, that question does represent my belief system, so why not ask it of me?
As to the children question, well, if a person doesn't want his/her children to learn anything about the church or about Jesus, why is s/he bringing them to a place that is openly teaching church history and the life and times of Jesus? If you'll notice, the question was, "Do you intend to raise your children in the church, instructing your children in the ways of the church and Christ?" The question was not "Will you raise your children to be Christians?" It was not "Will you raise your children to accept Jesus as Lord and Savior of their lives?"
In Disciples, "the ways of the church" means, "I have my space to develop my faith and beliefs as I need. Likewise, I grant you the space to do the same." Jesus isn't even mentioned. That was the minister's paraphrase and certainly congruent with my upbringing and experiences in the denomination. Disciples do not accept a prescribed doctrine or orthodoxy, so finding something "official" to point to in order to prove what they do is rather difficult. In fact, there may be churches that do require an affiliation to Jesus as Lord and Savior. Without a doctrine to require to forbid something, anything is possible. Just because I have never heard of one or seen one, doesn't mean they are there. Disciple members tend to regard conservative beliefs as an acceptable interpretation, should that be a person's choice. However, rationalism over emotionalism will be a foundation. In other words, members are generally expected and encouraged to think about the philosophy or theology rather than just have an emotional reaction.
There are members at the church that won't even call themselves "Christian" because the label does not accurately reflect their beliefs. I doubt they affirmed Jesus as Lord and Savior. I believe it is a reasonable conclusion that they were not even asked such a thing.
When people join, they are asked questions that represent their beliefs. If that includes a sky-god, so be it. If not, alright. I mean, there's got to be a logical reason why a person wants to come, wants to join. What's wrong with hearing it?
I will grant, if a person thinks Jesus was wind bag, full of hot air, and that the way he lived his life or the principles he espoused were utter bullshit, then there's probably not a church where that person will feel comfortable. Even the Unitarians think Jesus was an okay guy worth studying and considering.
I'm only going to the trouble to comment here because I think the myths and generalizations about "all Christians" and "all churches" should be dispelled, especially when they are not accurately representative of most Christians. I think I am obligated as a matter of affiliation not to agree by silence. Just like most Muslims are not fundamentalists, bent on bombing the U.S., most Christians are not fundamentalists, bent on doctrinaire or dogmatic regulation of thought. The more tolerant and accepting the world can be of its citizens for whom they really are, without demonizing or mythologizing them, the better we will all fare
I'm not really an atheist. Its ok if you say I am . But I'm an agnostic. . i think. Everyone reading this is closer to being a Christian than I will ever be. I'm often not very happy about my status as a non-believer. But it is who I am. And its not because I'm angry - not usually.
When it comes to these things, I feel very much the same as Carl Sagan does. Thats how I think on a good day. On a bad day, I think like Erin does.
It would be big and faulty leap of logic to jump to the conclusion that either Erin or I are doubting your experience in the church Elaine... I know from years of knowing you that you believe your experience has been just what you state it to be.
But just as big and faulty leap of logic is to assume that your particular experience is the prevalent one, or even a common one.
You choose to see the church as being much more open than most people see it, because that is what you saw and interpreted it to be as you grew up. You are making more assumptions about "most christians" than I am. Aside from posting the vids as a bit of ironic humor, the main thing I was saying is that I don't get the Jesus-is-most-special requirement of being a christian. And you seem to be saying that for "most christians" the Jesus-is-most-special belief structure isn't a requirement. And for you and your experience, that may be the case, but it's just not that way for most christians. Most people, let alone christians, don't think that hard about questions of faith. And as for them encouraging B to be a full member of the church, well if it really is a place of equal inclusion, then why the need for "deference to the occasion?" and his silence to the "lord and savior" question? If it truly doesn't matter, then why ask the question at all, and why worry at all if anyone would be bothered by an answer of "no?"
It is my guess that rather than being truly and objectively accepting of a differing point of view, most of those who aren't indifferent (and I would guess most people are relatively indifferent to new joiners, which isn't to say they aren't friendly), like the pasteur or greeting committee or whatever, encourage non-believers to join the church because they have the ulterior motive of hoping to eventually swing the non-believer around to their way of thinking, not because they truly respect the nonbelievers system of belief as equal...
But again, I think you're taking things I've said about religion and christians in general as some sort of personal attack, which they are not. I don't think you're lying, or exaggerating, or anything when it comes to what you've experienced. I'm just saying that it's not common, and that the bottom line is that most christians take the belief in Jesus as a requirement of being christian. that's all.
DAAAYYYYYYMMMM! I'm such a cynic, BRANNON thinks I'm a cynic!
Atheist, Agnostic.
Cynical, Bitter.
Jesus, Jebus.
Who's counting?
First of all, I think your humor is fine. In case I haven't been clear about that let me do so now.
My point, in a nutshell, is that Christians are far more tolerant of diverse religious opinions and Jesus-theology than the left gives them credit. Many of the left say things about church, which they don't attend, that simply isn't true, or about the Bible, which they don't read, and is just ignorant especially since they base their interpretation on what is said by the most ignorant among the Christians -- the fundamentalists -- and they make sweeping stereotypical statements that categorize all Christians into one likeness in keeping with a left agenda. It gets tired.
As to the deference thing... really, Tyson, am I not allowed a solemn religious moment? Should I go someplace and hide to practice my religion? I was being asked a question as part of a religious ceremony for me. I don't think it would have been appropriate for B to chime in, "Excuse me, but "I" don't accept Jesus as "MY" Lord and Savior." B wasn't the only one joining the church. I think the moment should be inclusive of my religious beliefs at least a little.
That being said...
I think your "Christ Tattoo" thing described is just great. I am thinking of it now not because it is sacrilegious, as you claim, but because SOMEWHERE there is a Christian fanatic that would embrace just such a tattoo as Divine Inspiration. It's hilarious and brilliant.
Anyway...
fucking an atheist is just naughtier than an ordinary-run-of-the-mill agnostic, as only a true believer can know.
I don’t recall ever tellin’ you about my Christ tattoo…
But I probably did.
Did I mention it came to me from the aether, as in a dream, right on the edge of wakefulness? As though it were of divine (or at least supernatural) origin? Or that for a brief moment, I thought I might be smited?
Yeah, you did tell me about how it "came" to you. Feeble attempt there, at a pun.
I'll admit, it took some prodding to get it out of you after you let slip that you had this really bizarre tattoo idea.
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